Australia - Foreign Minister Smith interview with Jon Faine, ABC Melbourne

as posted here ... Australia - Foreign Minister Smith interview with Jon Faine, ABC Melbourne

Topics: Expulsion of Israeli diplomat, abuse of Australian passports, Foreign Aid budget

JON FAINE: Stephen Smith is the Minister for Foreign Affairs in Kevin Rudd's Government and joins us from the national capital, as he announced yesterday that Australia was expelling one Israeli envoy from their embassy in the national capital because of events back in January.

Stephen Smith, good morning.

STEPHEN SMITH: Good morning, Jon.

JON FAINE: Why has it taken so long?

STEPHEN SMITH: Because we wanted to give this matter exhaustive consideration. I commissioned, through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, an investigation by the Australian Federal Police in February. I received that report in April. It was clear from that report that further work needed to be done by other security agencies, in particular ASIO.

That included a visit to Israel by the Director-General of ASIO, and I received a final report and final advices on all of these matters last week.

I wanted to brief the National Security Committee of the Cabinet, which I did yesterday. But I also wanted to advise the Parliament, in the first instance, of the decision that we had made because of the importance of the decision to our national security interests and to the integrity of our passport system.

JON FAINE: Who chose the individual who's being expelled? Did Australia identify someone, or did the Israelis 'fess up?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well the Secretary of the Department, at my request, spoke to the Chargé yesterday in the absence of the Israeli Ambassador, and indicated we wanted an Israeli official from the embassy to depart. We indicated…

JON FAINE: Yes, but any official, or did you say who it was?

STEPHEN SMITH: We indicated privately whom that official should be, but we don't propose to identify that official in any way and that is…

JON FAINE: Why not?

STEPHEN SMITH: That's in accordance with all of the usual customs in these matters; we simply indicate that we want an official to leave and that's what is occurring.

JON FAINE: Is that person a spy, a Mossad spy?

STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not proposing, as I said yesterday, to categorise, characterise or identify that individual. People can speculate, people can draw their own conclusions if they want to…

JON FAINE: Would I be wrong if I speculated that this person is a Mossad agent working in Canberra?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well, you would simply be speculating. It's a matter for you to do that; I'm not proposing to be drawn on it.

JON FAINE: Well why else would you be asking that that individual, nominated individual, be required to leave?

STEPHEN SMITH: In accordance with all of these usual diplomatic processes, we indicate to the relevant embassy that we want and require an official to leave. That's what we've done.

JON FAINE: When did you first know that there was a Mossad spy working in Canberra?

STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not proposing, Jon, to go into any of these details. That is not the way in which we administer or deliberate over these matters. As I said yesterday to the press conference, I'd made a statement to the Parliament. There was a limit to what I could add to that, for all of the obvious national security interest reasons.

JON FAINE: Are you treating Israel differently to the way you'd treat some other country if the same situation arose in relation to one of their so-called diplomats working as a spy and intruding on the Australian sovereignty?

STEPHEN SMITH: We have treated this matter, Jon, in accordance with the way in which any Australian Government that is assiduous about protecting our national security interests would treat it.

JON FAINE: No, we've gone softly-softly, slowly-slowly and then, without wanting to upset or offend Israel, but please, you're going to have to get rid of somebody.

STEPHEN SMITH: We have asked the Australian Federal Police to conduct an investigation, and we have very carefully considered the combined advice to us of our national security agencies: the Australian Federal Police, ASIO, ASIS, and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And we have made a decision, which we believe is sensible and appropriate in the circumstances.

It sends a very strong message that we will not stand idly by and allow our passport system to be trampled over; we will not stand idly by and allow our sovereignty to be trampled upon; we will not stand idly by and see our national security interest trampled, which is what Mr Abbot and Ms Bishop are saying in response to our decision.

JON FAINE: But we won't get very angry and we won't act quickly and we won't act decisively either because we don't want to offend and upset the Israelis. It's a very half-hearted response, if you don't mind me saying so, Minister.

STEPHEN SMITH: You're perfectly entitled to say what you like, Jon, but you won't be surprised that I fundamentally disagree with your flawed analysis.

In national security interests, you do not want to rush to judgement as Mr Abbott did. Before the Australia Federal Police have even completed their inquiry, Mr Abbott said we should do nothing. So you don't want to rush to judgement; that's the first point.

Secondly, you want to do it after you have carefully considered all of the appropriate and relevant advice, and this is the mistake, a very serious mistake, that Ms Bishop has made. She received briefings yesterday from the Australian Federal Police, ASIO, ASIS, and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, making the same points to her as was made to me, which I accurately reflected in the Parliament.

She has shown that she is not fit to be responsible for our national security interests. These are not matters where you either rush to judgment or where you flagrantly ignore the very serious advice that you receive from our national security agencies.
We have given this difficult decision very careful consideration and we believe that it is an appropriate response to reflect our very strong view that our passport system should not be trampled over, that our sovereignty should not be trampled over, and our national security interests should not be trampled over.

JON FAINE: Minister, I've had a quick look at some of the Israeli newspapers online this morning in their online editions. If they mention this at all, mention it as a two line item in brief, in passing. It just doesn't matter to Israel. So what sort of a signal do you really think is being sent to the Government of Israel?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well I haven't checked the Israeli media myself, Jon…

JON FAINE: But I'm telling you I have. It barely rates a mention.

STEPHEN SMITH: Well I'm very happy for you to do that, Jon. I'm very happy for you to scour whatever websites you want to. But the Israeli Government, the Israeli nation, very clearly understands that Australia very strongly believes that their conduct in this matter is not the conduct of a friend, is not the action that we would come to expect from a nation that Australia has been very close to and very supportive of for a long period of time, over a long period of time by successive Australian governments.

That we regard ourselves as having been very badly let down and we will not, unlike Mr Abbott and Ms Bishop, turn a blind eye to the trampling of the integrity of our passport system. They got that message very clearly.

JON FAINE: And just finally, Minister, are you concerned about the disclosures at Senate Estimates and in the media about wasted money in Australia's foreign aid contracts, millions of dollars being spent on — well, USD 12 million, for instance, in Papua New Guinea on rent alone, and concerns expressed by all sorts of experts that we're not getting much bang for our buck for the foreign aid money?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well, two things. Firstly, in our Budget we indicated we were doing a review of the level of technical assistance and advisors. That amount, or proportion of our spending, has come down in recent years, firstly.

Secondly, so far as Papua New Guinea is concerned, where some of the focus has been, yesterday I indicated that as a result of a review of the Cooperation Treaty that we have with Papua New Guinea. I published a review yesterday. That clearly points to areas where we need to improve, and we'll do that. We're also very conscious of making sure…

JON FAINE: Sure, but advisor on gender integration earning more than the Prime Minister; five companies sharing a billion dollars or more in AusAID contracts. It doesn't sound very good.

STEPHEN SMITH: Which is why we're doing a review of the technical assistance and the advisor arrangements. Jon, in any development assistance program you can, in isolation, draw attention to something which we wouldn't regard as value for money.

What we're trying to do here is to make sure that we discharge our obligations as a good international citizen at the same time that we get value for money. We're very pleased, for example, that the Auditor-General will now look at AusAID programs every year.

We're very pleased that the aid effectiveness program now reports to the Parliament every year. There is more we can do to ensure we get value for money and we deliver aid effectively.

But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater because we will always find in difficult countries, in developing countries and a very hard environment, examples that you could hold up in isolation and say this was a waste of money.

I acknowledge that and I accept that, but this is a good thing for Australia to do. It's in our national interest to help the countries around us who don't have the same wealth or prosperity that we do. It's a good thing to do and it advances our national interests at the same time.

JON FAINE: All right, I'm grateful to you or your time this morning and thank you. Stephen Smith, Minister for Foreign Affairs.