Wednesday 26 May 2010

Australia - Foreign Minister Smith interview with Jon Faine, ABC Melbourne

as posted here ... Australia - Foreign Minister Smith interview with Jon Faine, ABC Melbourne

Topics: Expulsion of Israeli diplomat, abuse of Australian passports, Foreign Aid budget

JON FAINE: Stephen Smith is the Minister for Foreign Affairs in Kevin Rudd's Government and joins us from the national capital, as he announced yesterday that Australia was expelling one Israeli envoy from their embassy in the national capital because of events back in January.

Stephen Smith, good morning.

STEPHEN SMITH: Good morning, Jon.

JON FAINE: Why has it taken so long?

STEPHEN SMITH: Because we wanted to give this matter exhaustive consideration. I commissioned, through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, an investigation by the Australian Federal Police in February. I received that report in April. It was clear from that report that further work needed to be done by other security agencies, in particular ASIO.

That included a visit to Israel by the Director-General of ASIO, and I received a final report and final advices on all of these matters last week.

I wanted to brief the National Security Committee of the Cabinet, which I did yesterday. But I also wanted to advise the Parliament, in the first instance, of the decision that we had made because of the importance of the decision to our national security interests and to the integrity of our passport system.

JON FAINE: Who chose the individual who's being expelled? Did Australia identify someone, or did the Israelis 'fess up?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well the Secretary of the Department, at my request, spoke to the ChargĂ© yesterday in the absence of the Israeli Ambassador, and indicated we wanted an Israeli official from the embassy to depart. We indicated…

JON FAINE: Yes, but any official, or did you say who it was?

STEPHEN SMITH: We indicated privately whom that official should be, but we don't propose to identify that official in any way and that is…

JON FAINE: Why not?

STEPHEN SMITH: That's in accordance with all of the usual customs in these matters; we simply indicate that we want an official to leave and that's what is occurring.

JON FAINE: Is that person a spy, a Mossad spy?

STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not proposing, as I said yesterday, to categorise, characterise or identify that individual. People can speculate, people can draw their own conclusions if they want to…

JON FAINE: Would I be wrong if I speculated that this person is a Mossad agent working in Canberra?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well, you would simply be speculating. It's a matter for you to do that; I'm not proposing to be drawn on it.

JON FAINE: Well why else would you be asking that that individual, nominated individual, be required to leave?

STEPHEN SMITH: In accordance with all of these usual diplomatic processes, we indicate to the relevant embassy that we want and require an official to leave. That's what we've done.

JON FAINE: When did you first know that there was a Mossad spy working in Canberra?

STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not proposing, Jon, to go into any of these details. That is not the way in which we administer or deliberate over these matters. As I said yesterday to the press conference, I'd made a statement to the Parliament. There was a limit to what I could add to that, for all of the obvious national security interest reasons.

JON FAINE: Are you treating Israel differently to the way you'd treat some other country if the same situation arose in relation to one of their so-called diplomats working as a spy and intruding on the Australian sovereignty?

STEPHEN SMITH: We have treated this matter, Jon, in accordance with the way in which any Australian Government that is assiduous about protecting our national security interests would treat it.

JON FAINE: No, we've gone softly-softly, slowly-slowly and then, without wanting to upset or offend Israel, but please, you're going to have to get rid of somebody.

STEPHEN SMITH: We have asked the Australian Federal Police to conduct an investigation, and we have very carefully considered the combined advice to us of our national security agencies: the Australian Federal Police, ASIO, ASIS, and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And we have made a decision, which we believe is sensible and appropriate in the circumstances.

It sends a very strong message that we will not stand idly by and allow our passport system to be trampled over; we will not stand idly by and allow our sovereignty to be trampled upon; we will not stand idly by and see our national security interest trampled, which is what Mr Abbot and Ms Bishop are saying in response to our decision.

JON FAINE: But we won't get very angry and we won't act quickly and we won't act decisively either because we don't want to offend and upset the Israelis. It's a very half-hearted response, if you don't mind me saying so, Minister.

STEPHEN SMITH: You're perfectly entitled to say what you like, Jon, but you won't be surprised that I fundamentally disagree with your flawed analysis.

In national security interests, you do not want to rush to judgement as Mr Abbott did. Before the Australia Federal Police have even completed their inquiry, Mr Abbott said we should do nothing. So you don't want to rush to judgement; that's the first point.

Secondly, you want to do it after you have carefully considered all of the appropriate and relevant advice, and this is the mistake, a very serious mistake, that Ms Bishop has made. She received briefings yesterday from the Australian Federal Police, ASIO, ASIS, and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, making the same points to her as was made to me, which I accurately reflected in the Parliament.

She has shown that she is not fit to be responsible for our national security interests. These are not matters where you either rush to judgment or where you flagrantly ignore the very serious advice that you receive from our national security agencies.
We have given this difficult decision very careful consideration and we believe that it is an appropriate response to reflect our very strong view that our passport system should not be trampled over, that our sovereignty should not be trampled over, and our national security interests should not be trampled over.

JON FAINE: Minister, I've had a quick look at some of the Israeli newspapers online this morning in their online editions. If they mention this at all, mention it as a two line item in brief, in passing. It just doesn't matter to Israel. So what sort of a signal do you really think is being sent to the Government of Israel?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well I haven't checked the Israeli media myself, Jon…

JON FAINE: But I'm telling you I have. It barely rates a mention.

STEPHEN SMITH: Well I'm very happy for you to do that, Jon. I'm very happy for you to scour whatever websites you want to. But the Israeli Government, the Israeli nation, very clearly understands that Australia very strongly believes that their conduct in this matter is not the conduct of a friend, is not the action that we would come to expect from a nation that Australia has been very close to and very supportive of for a long period of time, over a long period of time by successive Australian governments.

That we regard ourselves as having been very badly let down and we will not, unlike Mr Abbott and Ms Bishop, turn a blind eye to the trampling of the integrity of our passport system. They got that message very clearly.

JON FAINE: And just finally, Minister, are you concerned about the disclosures at Senate Estimates and in the media about wasted money in Australia's foreign aid contracts, millions of dollars being spent on — well, USD 12 million, for instance, in Papua New Guinea on rent alone, and concerns expressed by all sorts of experts that we're not getting much bang for our buck for the foreign aid money?

STEPHEN SMITH: Well, two things. Firstly, in our Budget we indicated we were doing a review of the level of technical assistance and advisors. That amount, or proportion of our spending, has come down in recent years, firstly.

Secondly, so far as Papua New Guinea is concerned, where some of the focus has been, yesterday I indicated that as a result of a review of the Cooperation Treaty that we have with Papua New Guinea. I published a review yesterday. That clearly points to areas where we need to improve, and we'll do that. We're also very conscious of making sure…

JON FAINE: Sure, but advisor on gender integration earning more than the Prime Minister; five companies sharing a billion dollars or more in AusAID contracts. It doesn't sound very good.

STEPHEN SMITH: Which is why we're doing a review of the technical assistance and the advisor arrangements. Jon, in any development assistance program you can, in isolation, draw attention to something which we wouldn't regard as value for money.

What we're trying to do here is to make sure that we discharge our obligations as a good international citizen at the same time that we get value for money. We're very pleased, for example, that the Auditor-General will now look at AusAID programs every year.

We're very pleased that the aid effectiveness program now reports to the Parliament every year. There is more we can do to ensure we get value for money and we deliver aid effectively.

But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater because we will always find in difficult countries, in developing countries and a very hard environment, examples that you could hold up in isolation and say this was a waste of money.

I acknowledge that and I accept that, but this is a good thing for Australia to do. It's in our national interest to help the countries around us who don't have the same wealth or prosperity that we do. It's a good thing to do and it advances our national interests at the same time.

JON FAINE: All right, I'm grateful to you or your time this morning and thank you. Stephen Smith, Minister for Foreign Affairs.

In spy games, fury has no coin | The Australian

AS POSTED HERE ... In spy games, fury has no coin | The Australian

THE Rudd government's expulsion of the Israeli embassy's resident Mossad agent has been greeted with local indignation and muted acceptance in Israel. But in the intelligence world, any fallout from the fake passports affair could be short-lived.

Despite tough talk on Monday that Israel's actions were not those of a friend, Minister for Foreign Affairs Stephen Smith knows all too well that neither country can afford to have sour diplomatic relations. Security analysts and intelligence experts tell The Australian that the ever-cautious Smith can even take some comfort.

After weighing up the diplomatic fallout, Mossad hit teams and their political masters in Jerusalem are unlikely to be using Australian passports when they next decide to liquidate another Hamas terrorist.

The Netanyahu government has decided it will not embark on a running commentary in response to the expulsion but the decision of ambassador Yuval Rotem to cut short his stay in Israel and return to Canberra immediately underscores the fact Jerusalem does have concerns.


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It was a theme reinforced by Yossi Melman, the widely respected intelligence and military affairs correspondent for Israeli newspaper Haaretz, who says while the misuse of Australian passports has caused diplomatic problems between Australia and the Jewish state, damage on the intelligence front will likely be limited.

"You know in these kinds of spy games and in this kind of shadow world, not everything that we see on the surface is the reality underneath," Melman says.

"I know that the Australian government, and rightly so, is very unhappy about using Australian passports, but on the other hand I'm sure that between intelligence organisations there is a greater understanding that such operations are a necessity from time to time," Melman told ABC's Lateline on Monday.

This curious spat has its origins five months ago. But it has been exacerbated by Australian claims of an alleged breach of a confidential undertaking given years earlier.

It began on January 20 with the discovery of the body of a leading Palestinian militant, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, in his room at a luxury Dubai hotel.

After some initial confusion over cause of death some smart police work in Dubai determined that the Palestinian militant had been murdered: injected with a muscle relaxant and then suffocated.

Vision obtained from hotel security cameras pointed to the involvement of a team of assassins and the finger of blame was quickly pointed at Israel's spy agency, Mossad. Israel has never denied the charge.

At first it appeared just like any of the other Israeli anti-terrorist assassinations; there have been at least 40 during the past 50 years, according to Melman.

But the Dubai hit became complicated with the discovery al-Mabhouh's killers were travelling on forged British, Irish, Canadian, German and Australian passports. Significantly, no US passports were involved.

When Dubai authorities contacted Canberra asking for information on the details of four Australian passports linked to the murder, alarm bells rang.

The Australian Federal Police was called in, as were the two key national intelligence agencies, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation and its overseas counterpart, the Australian Secret Intelligence Service. Their findings confirmed what everyone suspected. And while it stopped short of confirming a state-sanctioned hit by Mossad, it did finger Israel for passport misuse.

The potential for prolonged diplomatic damage should not be overstated. While Canberra gains some benefit from intelligence sharing with Israel - mostly involving developments in Lebanon - formal agreements with allies, all of whom maintain links with their Israeli counterparts, mean it is highly unlikely Australia will be cut out of the intelligence loop.

"The major source of Australia's intelligence is through the ABCA [America, Britain, Canada, Australia] countries and anything of critical interest to both countries [Israel and Australia] will be passed on regardless of this affair," an Australian security analyst with extensive Middle East experience says.

"Australia's reliance on Israeli intelligence sourcing is almost negligible and anything of criticality will come through other sources. I don't see this as being a big intelligence problem at all."

Asked how critical any interruption would be on intelligence sharing between Canberra and Tel Aviv, the analyst replied: "Not much. I've worked at the levels where I would see it and there is nothing much of any note.

"We might give them some stuff on JI [Jemaah Islamiyah] but they [Israel] would get it through the Americans, the Brits, the Canadians, even the Singaporeans: they have very close links with Israel."

It all highlights the difficulties for the Rudd government in shaping an appropriate response.

In his ministerial statement on Monday, Smith said no government can tolerate the abuse of

its passports, a clear affront to

the security of the passport system.

"These investigations and advice have left the government in no doubt that Israel was responsible for the abuse and counterfeiting of these passports.

"I note that a similar conclusion was reached by the United Kingdom government in the course of their official investigations," Smith said.

Israel's actions were not the actions of a friend, Smith added.

Australia's bipartisan support for Israel goes back to the creation of the country in 1948.

What rankles with Smith seems not so much the murder of al-Mabhouh, but a breach of a confidential undertaking given to Australia years earlier during the Howard government.

"The Dubai passports incident also constitutes a clear and direct breach of confidential understandings between Australia and Israel dating back some years," he said.

According to former foreign minister Alexander Downer, that involved a promise by Israel its Mossad operatives would not misuse Australian passports after a bungled 2003 attempt to clone Australian and New Zealand identities, an incident more worthy of the Keystone Kops than a crack spy organisation.

In July 2004 New Zealand imposed diplomatic sanctions on Israel over an incident in which two Israeli citizens living in Sydney attempted to fraudulently obtain NZ passports by claiming the identity of a disabled man.

Their attempt to mimic a NZ accent gave them away.

An alert Kiwi immigration official alerted the country's security agency, resulting in arrests and six-month jail terms for both men. Two other agents are believed to have escaped.

In a new twist, The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday one of the Dubai suspects is believed to have been involved in that case.

So far the Israeli response has been muted; Tel Aviv, it seems, does not want to give the matter any oxygen.

Israel's Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor would only say: "We regret the Australian decision, which is not in line with the quality and the importance of our relationship."

Netanyahu has refrained from commenting, with the only minister so far to make any comment being Dan Meridor, Deputy PM and Minister for Intelligence Agencies.

Meridor described the Israeli-Australian relationship as "strong, deep and broad", which would endure the expulsion because it was in the interests of both countries to do so.

But the media has not been so positive. Writing in Haaretz, columnist Amir Oren says it took "a special talent" to damage the relationship between Israel and Australia.

"Lately, there have not been any top-tier Australian politicians who were not supportive of Israel," Oren writes.

"It thus requires special talent to transform Australia into a country that feels obligated to take steps against Israel. Yet one person in Israel has that talent. And this time, it is not Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman.

"The person who managed to get Israel in trouble with Australia, Britain and the other embittered countries is the head of Mossad, Meir Dagan.

"But what does Dagan care about Rudd, Smith or [David] Irvine? So long as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is in his pocket, the world can go to hell.

"And if it does not do so on its own, Dagan will show it how."

Back in Canberra the affair and the government's handling of the it triggered angry claims by deputy opposition leader Julie Bishop that Australian intelligence agencies had previously used forged passports.

Her claims follow confidential security briefings by ASIO and the AFP given prior to Smith's ministerial statement on the Mossad expulsion. It sparked a sharp rebuke from the Foreign Minister. In parliament yesterday, Smith said the remarks show Bishop can not be trusted.

But they also failed to differentiate a key Smith grievance: that the Israeli actions constituted identity theft of innocent Australian citizens rather than forgery.

The Rudd government's response to the Israeli actions has been measured and considered, says Hugh White, head of the Australian National University's Strategic and Defence Studies Centre.

"The fact the Israelis got caught out in such a flagrant misuse of our passports made it impossible for the government not to respond in some way. I think the government's response in this has been entirely reasonable," White says.

"The biggest mystery in this remains the fact the Israelis put themselves in this position by using passports in such a flagrant way. That, and the fact they were prepared to do it all on video, seemed to make the fact it was all going to come unstuck inevitable."

Regardless, the issue has proved fertile ground for the opposition after the powerful Jewish lobby expressed disappointment at the government's decision to expel the embassy's Mossad agent.

Earlier, Bishop accused Rudd of exploiting the affair to curry favour with Arab governments in order to enhance prospects of a UN Security Council seat,

claims the government strongly rejected.

At a press conference, Smith declined to answer whether Australian national intelligence agencies use forged passports.

" I can say with my hand well and truly firmly clasped on my heart that when it comes to intelligence matters, when it comes to operational matters, consistent with the long-standing tradition of all Australian governments, I'm never drawn on our intelligence community or the intelligence agency for which I have formal ministerial responsibility, ASIS."

While he expects a temporary "cooling off" in intelligence co-operation with Israel, Canberra's Middle East diplomacy remains unchanged.

Asked if the issue would change attitudes towards Israel at the UN, Smith said: "Absolutely not. And I have to say that since the announcement of the AFP investigation until now there have been a couple of matters with respect to Israel, either before the General Assembly or in respect of Middle East peace talks, which people have tried to look through this prism in terms of the Australian government's approach and response.

"Can I just say that we have not allowed this issue to disturb in any way our policy approach to Israel, our policy approach to Middle East peace matters and we will not allow that to occur.

"So far as UN resolutions on the Middle East are concerned, we consider these annually on a case by case basis, within a well understood policy framework about whether the resolutions advance, for example, the furtherance of peace in the Middle East.

"So we have not allowed this matter to disturb the fundamental basis of our approach to the Middle East and nor will we."

Additional reporting: Middle East correspondent John Lyons.